Mustafa,

I have been reading your posts for the past few years. Your site has been interesting and informative and I have recommended it to many of my friends in order to help them expand their "world view". As an American, I hold to a world view that is formed by my American/Christian upbringing. That said, I wish to be aware of the world around me and have a greater understanding of those not like me, especially those with whom I can have meaningful/productive dialog. This latest article on Hamas has provoked me to respond

From where I stand, Hamas is a side of Islam that the world could do without. Unlike Mahmoud Abbas, leadership in Hamas wants to see a world without Israel. That is unrealistic and removes any sense of credibility to negotiating with them. I have to believe that most of the Palestinians are peace loving people who want/need a place to live and flourish. The influence of Hamas, with its indoctrination of hate, and willingness to use the general public as shields gives me zero sympathy or regard for their cause.
Mahmoud Abbas on the other hand appears to have his people's interest squared with reality. Having visited Israel and the West Bank, I can't help but sympathize with ALL in the region. But what I have zero sympathy for is ANYONE (regardless of race/religion) who would tolerate or promote suicide bombings, the destruction of Israel, the idea that "infidels" should be killed, the idea that one who turns from any religion to another should be killed, or that somehow this resistance with arms will be rewarded in heaven. These concepts and ideas will only serve to reinforce and confirm with those in the west that Islam is not to be trusted or otherwise embraced. I hope that someday very soon Islam will look back on all of this in a similar way as most Christians look back on the Crusades. A regrettable time where some in leadership used their power to influence the feeble minded to carry out deeds contrary to their fundamental beliefs.

What is wrong with the eradication of terrorist camps where Turkish students brainwashed by TUSiAD-sponsored professors get their last training to attack the acquisitions (e.g. the right of free trade acquired by the Baltalimani Trade Act of 1838) of Anatolian peoples?

Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people. Do you know who people in Gaza are? They are all former inhabitants of the regions where the state of Israel and Jewish settlers reside! They have been in recent decades driven out of what is now Israel. Jews were settled in their place.

How can you blame these people for wanting the end of the state of Israel now? How how how? With what claim of conscientiousness? They just want to return to their homelands which are occupied by Israeli Jews now. And if they return home, the Jews will have to go and the state of Israel will have to stop existing as a logical consequence.

And ToddR, with my upbringing at least as noble and open-minded as yours, I cannot stand people who do not understand the plight of the people of Gaza, who do not understand why they are right to opt for Hamas democratically (look back again at the above paragraph) and not that meek and corrupt Mahmud Abbas regime.

There has been an embargo on Gaza for months. The people of Gaza are hungry and without sanitary facilities because of the embargo, which is imposed on them just because they chose to use their democratic right to choose Hamas, which stands for their rights, instead of that corrupt Abbas and his terrible party.

Mustafa,
You can try to find all sociologists explaination of "why they hate us"...but it suffices to go to the sources:
Please read the 100% orthodox islamist charter of Hamas (article 15 about the obligation of Jihad and article 34, as well as citations about hatred for Christians and Jews (surah 2:20 and surah 3:12)

At the end, it is a religious problem, tied to religious extremism. Nothiing more, nothing less...

(Mehmed, you have a strange logic, for the last years Hamas got back all of Gaza, there has been no Jew inside for a while (except Shahit), moreover, if you want to play your game, you should go back and ask who has been living there before the Arabs ("Palestinians" is a Roman denomination for tribes that lived there during the Jewish Tetrarchy...Jews have been living this land for fore that 3000 years)...so, following your logic, for example, Berbers and Copts should try to eradicate all Arabs, and Romans should conquest again all Mediterrean Sea, bcs nowadays tehre are no more Cartahginian, Phoenitians etc etc...
Gaza has not suffering of the blocade bcs of its democratic choises, but because of more of 500 flying gifts that Israel recieved in the last 40 days (during the lull...)

What a strange logic from Echnaton! I am talking about people whose selves, fathers and grandfathers were driven out of their lands and constrained into the small area of Gaza and you are bizarrely responding by mentioning 3000 years ago...

I don't like playing historical games like this. But I have to just debunk your myths and the shameful game you and many other crusaders of the modern age play.

Let me tell you who were in Palestine 3000 years ago: The ancestors of today's Palestinians. They became Muslim, they loved the Arab culture and adopted Arabic. The Arabs outside the Arabian peninsula are descendants of the natives of those regions. Their peninsular "invader" genes constitute a very small percentage. Praise be to Allah/God who made them accept the true religion voluntarily!

And don't play the laughable game of saying "but they were made Muslim at the point of the sword". Latest western research itself has debunked that myth. Read the book about Islamic history by Jonathan Berkey for example and get a little enlightened. Save yourself from two hundred years of imperialist orientalist myths.

And let me tell you who the Israeli Ashkenazi oligarchy who are now ruling the state of Israel and are despising even the Middle Eastern-looking Jews are: They are Polish and German invaders whose ancestors never lived in the Palestinian region.

And you are from America? Your ancestors lived there not 3000 but 500 years ago?

This much enlightenment about historical facts is enough for you today.

With love from a western-educated historian

I have been a supporter of Israel but I do not support the current aggression. It is indeed a highway to hell. I have said in another blog response that I now believe an international mechanism for forced arbitration must be developed. It is obvious that the two sides of this issue will never come to an agreement because of various non-negotiable issues. Also any peace brokered by the US or any other individual nation will be seen as biased. An international mechanism made up of non-interested participants would be seen as fair given time for the mechanism to develop in an organic way. I think the point has come in world affairs where meaningful international institutions have become critically necessary.

Mehmed!
thus what a poor state of western education!
But before learning history you should have studied logic...you want people not to to reply bcs people should not utilize your own logic...speaking about consistency...
You are playing the same play as hamas: you attack, and when people fight back, you play the victim..
the only problem is that this logic worked in the 70's...."oh these poor palestians", even myself used to say (my best friends at the Uni were all paleo)...but after 40 years, everyone is fed up...even hearing always the same complaints hurts me now

Mehmed -

I do not mean to suppose that the Palestinians should not demand for a more favorable and balanced solution than currently exists.

In my initial comments I said I support a solution where the Palestinians can live and flourish, not simply survive. ALL men/women should be allowed this basic right (within the confines of reasonable laws). Yet your argument, like Hamas, seems to suggest that the only solution is the removal of Israel.

I believe this is futile. As long as this mentality continues more precious innocent lives will be lost. I also reiterate that I believe suicide bombing (with the idea that you are somehow securing any heavenly blessings), the practice of labeling your enemies as "infidels" (making them easier to kill), and leading people to kill in the name of God (quick to stir the easily manipulated), are tactics used by those who do not have their peoples true best interests in mind (ie. the use of human shields is appalling).

These methods are usually used by those with strong leadership and charismatic personalities, but typically void of much theological or doctrinal depth. It is simple manipulation in order to try and shape the world their liking.

The Palestinians need a strong voice speaking for them that can be taken seriously at the diplomatic table. Hamas in its present form cannot do this, and according to you, neither can Mahmoud Abbas. So who will it be?

Respectfully,

ToddR

PS. Mehmed, I would be interested in learning more from you and your perspective on the conflict. If you are interested, email me at sailor.todd@gmail.com and we can continue a dialog.

Mehmed said: "Let me tell you who were in Palestine 3000 years ago: The ancestors of today's Palestinians. They became Muslim, they loved the Arab culture and adopted Arabic. The Arabs outside the Arabian peninsula are descendants of the natives of those regions. Their peninsular "invader" genes constitute a very small percentage. Praise be to Allah/God who made them accept the true religion voluntarily!"

Excellent point, I never thought of it that way before. Your argument is precisely the same argument I make against Neo-Megalist Greeks. Anatolia and Eastern Thrace are supposedly the land of their ancestors. Which is partly true no doubt. But it is also no doubt that the majority of descendents of Byzantine Anatolia and Eastern Thrace are Turkish today.

Anyway on topic. I definitely have more sympathy for the Palestinians. Not because I am a Muslim and therefore it is assumed that I support them. But because of the way Israel is terrorising the civilian population. It looks like the Palestinians are being treated worst than insects.

But one has to also think about the terrorist elements of Hamas who fire countless rockets into Israel and endanger Israelis. There is idiocy from both sides. However Israel has killed so many innocent people, with its sophisticated weaponry and as the military of a so called democratic state, and as such it is the greater of two evils.

Mehmed said: "Let me tell you who were in Palestine 3000 years ago: The ancestors of today's Palestinians. They became Muslim, they loved the Arab culture and adopted Arabic. The Arabs outside the Arabian peninsula are descendants of the natives of those regions. Their peninsular "invader" genes constitute a very small percentage. Praise be to Allah/God who made them accept the true religion voluntarily!"

a)people living in Gaza 3000 years ago were Philisteans, a phoenitian population long extinct
b)It never existed a "palestinian" population. They are all 100% arabs. In Gaza: Egiptians, and in the West Bank: Giordanians. The term Palestinians has been a mediatic invention made up by the OLP. They never felt bound to any Palestinian Country. They felt either Egiptians or Giordaninas or Syrians. NOT EVEN DURING THE OTTOMAN OCCUPATION DID YOU EVER HEAR OF A PALESTINIAN POPULATION!!
c) that they didn't accept Islam warmly and were obliged under the sword is testified by a lot original Islamic sources and historians (don't have to take out J Berkey...(ps: that moreover writes a lot about how Islam has unislamic origins, but of course Mehmed was very selective in his choises))

What makes me laugh is that someone that tells of himself to be a Western educated historian can "sell" to everyone such fables!

Thus, can I tell of myself to be Napoleon?

For all of your "western education" and supposed logic, all of you seem to be missing the point: simply that, regardless of one's claim to a particular piece of land, in our modern world it is unacceptable to fire rockets into civilian areas. Both Hamas and the Republic of Israel are guilty of this, but they have also both been backed into corners because of an unfortunate new type of warfare. People who support one or the other or both sides should be crying out against this.

What we should also be speaking out against, especially here in America, is the financial and military support given to Israel when it has failed to follow certain UN resolutions regarding weapons and the treatment of human beings within its territory. Zionism on the American front has not only been directed at Muslims; ironically, if these "Christians" only knew that their tax dollars went toward the destruction of Palestinian Christians' homes, they may think twice about whether or not this Israeli (not Israelite) Republic is a genuine fulfillment of a supposed prophecy. Or maybe they would shrug it off and say, "They're not really Christians. They call themselves 'Orthodox' but they are not saved." Unfortunate.

If you wish to continue arguing about the claim to the land, you can take it back to when the Israelites defeated the Canaanites and the Amalekites and the Edomites, etc. Or you can take it back further to when the Neanderthals were defeated by modern Homo sapiens. Or how about when Homo erectus died off and a stronger hominid survived, therefore laying claim to the earth? Personally, I would like to think that the "fittest," the powerful leaders of this world today, are not still so territorial and barbaric in their thinking. We can value our religious systems all we want, but we all let our God down when we destroy the lives He created.

Caliph ~ Philistina ~ Israeli

caliphilisraelia ~ caliph of philisrael

caliph is steward of the land (watersheds)
and captain of a canoe called 'philisrael'

people used their paddles as swords to fight
the boat cannot stay afloat to go forward

lau lima (Hawaiian) = many hands together,
all paddling in synchrony with shared purpose

lau lama (Hawaiian) = many hearths separate,
each home is independent (no moshav/kibbutz)

*A moshav is a community [commune] where the members share agricultural equipment and market their produce jointly. Some moshavim have profit sharing as well (moshav shitufi). This is in distinction to a kibbutz, where all homes and property are owned jointly, and all income and expenses are shared, regardless of source. [wiki]

cilgun! loco! gila! crazy! maybe.

The Bible refers to “Philistines” (P'lishtim) as invaders, yet Israelis themselves invaded Canaan, the Canaanites as well from earlier settlers, perhaps the Neanderthals.

selam