This article is appalling.

Why is it for the Armenians to modify their national narrative to appease Turkish sensitivities? Why should the victims of genocide stop declaring the truth to make Turks feel less uncomfortable? Why should the Armenians dilute or distort their history so Turkey’s ultranationalists aren’t aroused? It’s up to you, Mustafa Akyol, to challenge and marginalise Turkish ultranationalists, not the Armenians. The duty of Armenians is to their ancestors and to the truth. Turkish complexes and sensitivities are for Turks to deal with.

And who are all these ‘serious non-Turkish scholars’ who deny the Armenian genocide? There are very few of them – certainly far fewer than the scholars who accept the veracity of the genocide – and those that do exist tend to be biased Turkophiles, mavericks or obscure scholars trying to make a name for themselves.

Lewy’s agenda in denying the Armenian genocide is to assert the uniqueness of the Jewish holocaust. His scholastic credentials have also been disputed and he has been criticised for being in the pay of the Turkish authorities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guenter_Lewy

There is a huge distinction between mass killings and genocide. Turks during WW1 may well have been subjected to massacres, but was there a systematic and government-inspired effort to wipe Turks out from the face of the earth? I don’t think so; but this is exactly what the late Ottomans are accused of in relation to the Armenians.

Finally, someone who denies that which to most other people is obviously true tends to look foolish, immature or slightly insane. Now, what would Turks rather be: foolish, immature and slightly insane or a people who in a dignified and thoughtful way can deal with the traumas of the past?

Very interesting and well thought out article..you are indeed one who cares for humanity. However, in regards to the issue at hand, I hold true to my beliefs, as you do yours.

Hear hear! Love what you have said here..
One comment: the nationalism which you refer to as a virus.. I take exception to a little bit. Is it your opinion that nationalism on any/all levels is a bad thing? even in moderation? Is it not [one of, if not]the glue which binds us together? Doesn't an absence of nationalism result in division and disintegration of any sort? I'm a naive, uneducated American born Turk.. tell me, as a purely unifying factor, what is best?: Religion? Ethnicity? or Nationality? (how about self pity?) Have you ever heard the song, "Proud to be an American!" ? Using one word, how would you judge these lyrics?:

If tomorrow all the things were gone,
I’d worked for all my life.
And I had to start again,
with just my children and my wife.

I’d thank my lucky stars,
to be livin here today.
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can’t take that away.

And I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.

And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.

From the lakes of Minnesota,
to the hills of Tennessee.
Across the plains of Texas,
From sea to shining sea.

From Detroit down to Houston,
and New York to L.A.
Well there's pride in every American heart,
and its time we stand and say.

That I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.

And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.

How can it be, that in a country as diverse as the USA, with people from all corners of the world calling it home.. that no one bird dogs such a song (and dozens of others much like it) as a symptom of the "nationalism virus"? The US is the world capital of arrogant condescending patriotism.. which I believe to be nationalism in disguise.. yet no one here calls it a bad thing. When some slack jawed yokel in Alabama proclaims "America! Love it or leave it!".. no one bristles with shame or fear.. They nod approval, they say "Amen!" In America, anything considered to be a unifying factor, is GOOD. To wit, the words of the "Pledge of Allegiance":

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

For 12 years attending America's public schools, I was compelled to recite this every morning of every school day, facing the flag with my hand over my heart. Everybody does.. whether they came here last week or last year, whether they're Armenian or Turkish, whether they're Muslim, Jew, Christian or "other".
So I must know.. why the double standard? Why is it okay for Americans to speak and act in ways that make their country "indivisible", but not okay for Turks? Assimilation? Turkification? There's assimilation here too! There's Americanization here too! Yet.. the problem is that Turkey is full of people who don't want to be Turks (even expressed as a nationality, hyphenated with ethnicity or origin), don't want to assimilate or salute it's flag. To them I say: "Love it or leave it".
Is there a word for the means which Armenians have been using as their "unifying factor" or their "indivisibility"? I can name a few words, none too flattering. When will we ever see a march or protest in Turkey with people of all backgrounds shouting "We are all TURKISH!" If native Turks did it, it would be called "nationalism". If Armenians did it, it would be called "the most beautiful thing ever seen".
Turkey is also "indivisible", and we can't thank any one thing more than nationalism for this blessing, right or wrong.
I've drifted away from my original purpose here, but I think you get my drift.

A fresh approach, excellent writen.
regards

Hi Mustafa,

I must say your open letter is quite refreshing, as are many other developments on this front. I do agree that many Armenians do not understand Turks very well, and that can be attributed directly to the, ahem, genocide, since we no longer live together. But what you say about the Armenian actions and the Turkish reaction I think has a serious flaw. First is that we need recognition from the west (if not Turkey yet) most of all for our own peace of mind, but more importantly, I think you are wrong about the longer term Turkish reaction to our campaigns.

True, the immediate response is very reactionary and hostile. You of course feel under attack and feel wronged (since many of you learned in school - probably not from your grandmothers what happened back then). BUT - if it was not for these Armenian campaigns, let us face facts, there would be ZERO dialog on the topic in Turkey. There would be no discussion, no soul searching, no wondering, no progress. The huge change in Turkish society on this topic is a long term affect of what Armenians have been doing for decades... when the scattered refugees of the genocide finally had gotten their lives back in order and re-established themselves enough to start worrying about the crime their parents had suffered. It just needs more time, more pushing, more education.

Everything you are advocating a softer approach, education, etc, it's all being done as well, though maybe not as prominently. Reaching an audience in Turkey (except on the web, which I've been doing for over 10 years) is not easy, due to censorship and of course closed-minds.

The main difference in our views of what happened come down to a couple of very "minor" details, which one day Turks everywhere will realize is simple and undeniable. Here it is in one sentence:

Even if some Armenians were advocating independence, or were Russian sympathizers, the reaction of the Ottoman Turkish Empire to kill every single Armenian in Anatolia in response is a textbook definition of genocide.

That's it. The thing most Turks like to say are 1) The Armenians wanted independence/were a fifth column, and 2) There was no intention to actually kill them, just to resettle them.

Well the response to this is very simple.
1) Irrelevant. Certainly some Armenians wanted independence or preferred Russian rule, but that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether it was a genocide or not. It's like saying, well Hitler killed the Jews because they controlled the banking sector. Well, maybe, maybe not, but it is irrelevant, there is no stipulation int he definition of genocide that it is actually ok if the race is guilty of something. An entire race cannot be guilty!
2) The process of what was done to the Armenians clearly - without any doubt - shows the immediate and ultimate goal of extermination of Armenians. The fact that Churchill calls it a Holocaust and the US Ambassador says extermination is not a coincidence, since the word genocide did not exist yet. To gather first the intellectual leaders and kill them, leaving the people leaderless, then the able man and kill them, leaving the people defenseless, then gather the women, children and elderly and drive them into the desert, raping, robbing and murdering them along the way - not once providing food or shelter, even if they survived the ordeal and end up in the desert, means this was, without a doubt, a genocide.

And to Murat I say your analogy is completely off in 2 ways. 1) Pointing out mistakes in America does not make it right for anyone else to do it. 2) Except for Native Americans, you CHOSE to go to America, and thus become and American. Armenians did not choose for Turks to conquer and subjugate and finally annihilate them in Anatolia.

Before I get off my soapbox, I'll just say that many Armenians are aware that Turks have been lied to by their own government, and do not fault the people. But now, with the internet, with the world recognizing the genocide despite blackmail threats and whether or not they have large Armenian communities, Turks have a responsibility to learn, to make their government change, and to finally come to terms with their past and neighbors.

Yours,
Raffi

Murat,
Nationalism in Turkey and for examaple Greece is ethnic-nationalism.
I lived long enough, 6 years, to see the difference between patriotism and ethnic-nationalism.
regards

Hi Raffi,

Your soft and liberal approach is a tale to convince yourself but anybody.
Persistency of this debate lies in the lack of definitive historical evidence. As we all know all evidence are gathered by Armenian or Armenian Funded (Suported-Lobbyists-whatever you name it) sources. So how accurate is the sources to these magnificent research data? Do you have any sufficient information gathered from Ottoman archives that is one of the most important part of this whole process? If you have any, can you provide them to us? Let me says on your behalf: No you can not. Because Ottoman Archives have not been searched/read or taken as subject evidence. Is it because they are corrupted? No they are as genuine as they were filed in their first dates in their history. Its all about eyes; because eyes see what they want to see; that simple. Please don’t give us poor boy routine because nobody is buying it anymore.

Furthermore, during the 900 years of life span of Ottoman Empire, did you know it was the safe harbor for the European Jews, Christians who were under prosecution? 900 years peaceful Armenian population suddenly became target to Ottoman Empire when the nation was sick and almost about to fall? Or may be is it because Country is betrayed by their fellow Armenian citizens and who also led 90,000 Army soldiers freezing to death in Sarikamis? Who also killed innocent Ottoman citizens, kids, children in their vein? Mustafa wrote logically and emotionally and most importantly for a better future. What is on your hand for a better future? I see only revenge…

This was a war, besides a crucial one because Enemy was in the state. If you are in the war zone, you do necessary to protect the sovereignty of your country. Like United States is doing the same thing against global terrorism inside and outside and killing innocent people in so called friendly fire-how would you justify this genocide? Are Iraqian kids are going to grow up with similar tales? What do you think?

Contrubition of Armenian diaspora is fake, It is more about hatred, separation and shading dark clouds to the sky of Turkish-Armenian brotherhood.

But History will write itself by Objective Historians, not by those who want to please some historical vengeance.

Dear Raffi,
There are still Armenians living after all in Turkey. That you don't trust them is a point to think about.

I strongly condem the relation you make between the Holocaust and the Armenian Democide as I call it.

I agree with Guven that the Diaspora are full of hatred and out for revenge.
But disagree with him on this: 'Furthermore, during the 900 years of life span of Ottoman Empire, did you know it was the safe harbor for the European Jews, Christians who were under prosecution?'

Ottoman Empire 900 years? No way....

And we remember very well when the Jews were prosecuted in Europe, the Turkish republic, as a bonus, put some extra tax on them in 1942...
Jews, Christians, Armenians etc. were not equal under Ottoman rule.
Last year survey showed that Turks don't trust Christians, Jews etc. More than 40% don't want to live next to them.
Ottomans only used them.

Ah Guven, you will see whatever you like in my words, and in whatever else you read. Replying to your illogical or irrelevant assertions and conclusions, unfortunately, would be pointless.

Dear Guven,
The Turkish government spent more money to lobby than the Armenian Diaspora: 25 milllion against 12 million.
Armenia, as a state spent 300.000 USD.
Can we please go back to the facts?
Hurriyet, spread the rumor that the Armenian Diaspora spent billions....while the poor Turks could noy spent any dime...
The psycholical climate in Turkey must change. Many people want a change in attitude. But forcing them to do so will give not the results as MA explained.

When Hrant Dink was killed by a crazed teenager, you saw Turks pouring out onto the streets to mourn. When Armenian terrorists were assassinating Turkish officials and their wives, Armenians also poured onto the streets - to celebrate.

There are 100,000 illegal Armenians living and working in Turkey rather than staying hungry in Armenia. The Turkish government turns a blind eye. If the Armenian diaspora spent half its time actually trying make Armenia a better place rather than getting states to recognize the Armenian genocide, maybe Armenia would be a lot more democratic and self-sufficient than it is today.

One of the reasons Armenians are pushing the genocide claim is to distract the world from their own crimes it committed against Muslims during and following WWI, and their crimes they've been committing against Azeris since the 1990's.

My family was driven out of Georgia following WWI by Armenian & Russian communists. They had lived there for so many generations our family doesn't even have records indicating they lived anywhere else before. Why isn't there an international condemnation of these events? Do we have to throw decades worth of our capital at politicians to make it happen like the Armenians did?

I like Mr. Akyol's attitude, but the Armenian officials are the ones who need to make the next move. The Turkish hand has been extended warmly towards Armenia for the past few years only to be given the cold shoulder. Ultimately, Armenia has much more to gain from good relations with Turkey than Turkey does with Armenia.

The Facts speak for them selves , Armenians understand the Turks very well better then what the turks know about the Armenians , don't forget we lived side by side during the ottoman regime .
And it was the Christian minority who were persecuted ,this is fact as the ottoman archives have all the taxation records for the ( infidel's ) non-Believers.This can not be disputed .

As for your article i can sympathies with you for trying to reach out to the Armenian people , but it is not us who you should be trying to reach out to. It is your government and nationalists who you should be concentrating on .

You also said that the Armenian diaspora tend to go fanatic , well yes i agree because off the physiological warfare the turks have played with the Armenians for over 90 years , i think if any one was in our shoes they will be the same .
As for our patriarch in Turkey first off all he has no choice but to use the words he does, secondly he doesn't speak for all the Armenians in Turkey or the Diaspora .

I also have Turkish freinds but i wish they were as kind as your Armenian friends , when they turn around and tell me my Grandmother is Armenian and they have this grin on their face well how do you think this makes me feel.

And to conclude my comment i would like to remind you that as long one turkey denies the Armenian Genocide we will be pushing for recognition. i must also make a point that Armenians are not only Angry and frustrated at the Turks and understand that this has nothing to do with Islam , we are as upset with those so called Christian countries , like France , England , Germany. who left our people to die and they will pay as well when the time is right.

anyways great article but in the future please research historic facts before using them in this manner.

Raffi

Thanks again Mustafa Akyol on a brilliant article. This article is a genuine attempt to reach out to the Armenian community to move on. Again Alexander, you have shown nothing new but contempt for the Turkish version of history without proving the Armenian version of the alleged incident. It is not up to the Turks that ‘Genocide’ did not occur but the burden is on the Armenian’s to prove ‘Genocide’ did occur. But so far this is far from the case.

The Armenian version relies on the forgeries of Henry Morgenthau. The ‘Genocide’ is a total fabrication and instigated by Henry Morgenthau to turn public opinion against Turkey in the US during the first world war. The accounts of Henry Morgenthau are held by many Armenian’s of proof of ‘Genocide’, but have been criticised by historians such as Sidney Bradshaw Fay and Harry Elmer Barnes which questions his credibility.

Turks have the right to reject the allegations of ‘Genocide’ even if many people argue the opposite. It is correct that many nations have recognised The Armenian Genocide but again credibility is an issue to these countries. Countries including Argentina, Chile, Russia, Germany have recognised but cannot be taken seriously since most of these states have very poor human rights records. The fact that Argentian and Chile have recognised a Genocide is frankly quite laughable since these countries killing thousands of their own citizens during the 70’s and 80’s. I find it quite strange how anyone can take the ‘genocide’ recognition from these countries seriously. Credibility is at issue here for the Armenians. I just wonder which country is next to recognise this alleged ‘Genocide’, maybe Rwanda? Maybe Cuba depending how Mr Castro feels in Havana?

Armenia is not an example to the world, it has poor human rights record and flagrant abuse of minorities. Right now about 1.5 million Azeri’s are displaced from their homes due to an illegal invasion conducted by Armenia against Azerbaijan. It is true that Turkey doesn’t have a glossy human rights record, but they are making an effort to improve human rights. Right now close to 90,000 Armenian illegal immigrants live in Turkey which also include over 60,000 Armenians who have lived for over hundreds of years. How many Turks or Azeri’s live in Armenia? None, that is right not one Turk lives in Armenia. This shows what environment the Turks are subjected to when living in a hostile and violent environment. The Armenian’s continue to shoot themselves in the foot by insisted Turkey recognise a ‘Genocide’ that never took place. It isn’t a prudent step since Armenia is in desperate need of Turkish investment to help grow their economy. But this is never going to happen while they insist on something that will never occur.

Raffi your logic is breathtaking and out of step with reality.

‘We need recognition from the west (if not Turkey yet)’

Wrong it is up to you to prove that ‘Genocide’ did occur, recognition without proof has never occurred before and never will.

‘The huge change in Turkish society on this topic is a long term affect of what Armenians have been doing for decades... when the scattered refugees of the genocide finally had gotten their lives back in order and re-established themselves enough to start worrying about the crime their parents had suffered. It just needs more time, more pushing, more education.’

Don’t you think that it goes both ways not just on the Turkish society but also Armenian society. Also it wasn’t only the Armenian’s that were refugees during the first world war. But many Turkish families left their properties in the Balkans and re-established themselves in the new Turkish republic.

‘Before I get off my soapbox, I'll just say that many Armenians are aware that Turks have been lied to by their own government, and do not fault the people. But now, with the internet, with the world recognizing the genocide despite blackmail threats and whether or not they have large Armenian communities, Turks have a responsibility to learn, to make their government change, and to finally come to terms with their past and neighbors.’

Oh please spare me the ‘lets be friends’ attitude. Contrary to what you may think, the Turkish people are very critical of their government and don’t believe everything they hear. This is a complete reversal to the Armenian people. In Turkey there is a debate raging about what did occur in Turkey in 1915? Unlike in Armenia, there is no debate or even recognition for the fact that Armenia illegally occupies Azerbaijani territory.

Alexander’s and Raffi’s attitude towards Turkey in regards to the alleged ‘Genocide’ is unrealistic and unreasonable. It’s very interesting how the Armenian’s have immigrated to countries like US made good lives for themselves but still hold on to old grudges. My advice to them is if you decide to make America your new home you should keep your old grudges where they were and not bring them with you. Getting recognition for a crime that never occurred is not about justice and humanity but about revenge and settling old scores. I really feel sorry for people like you who have a chip on their shoulder and lack critical thinking. This is not the way to gain respect or recognition as a people.

My only hope is that the Armenian Diaspora can just wake up and to think about their futures. But I will tell this to you Armenian’s as a Turk. There will NEVER be recognition for an alleged ‘Genocide’. I repeat NEVER. RESPECT is earned not given by deceit or blackmailing.

"..It intrigues me to see how Armenians in the Diaspora tend to be past-oriented.. memory-oriented.. whereas when you look at the Turks.. that's not the case at all. We are more future oriented.. and in some ways we are a society of collective amnesia. So it's not only 1915 that we are unable to talk about.. but the whole past.. For many people in Turkey history begins in 1923.. the day the Republic was established.. That is the beginning.. and anything that might have happened before then.. is of no real interest..."
-Elif Shafak on NPR in Spring of 2007
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7217653

Found your post via Amerikan Turk and wanted to say that I appreciate your trying to reach out in a calmer way to Armenians and so on. Also wanted to point you in the direction of an interesting article which features some interesting opinions on the Genocide resolution by a friend of mine, Yektan Turkyilmaz, and Turkish historian Taner Akcam.

Most Turkish academics toe the official line on the horrific events of 1915. But even some of those who accept that a genocide took place believe that passing the bill now is a bad idea. Yektan Turkyilmaz, a graduate student at Duke University, has the distinction of having been arrested by the Armenian KGB because his research led them to assume he was a Turkish spy. In fact, he is part of a new generation of Turkish scholars who reject their country’s propaganda about what happened to the Armenians. In a phone interview from Duke, Turkyilmaz said, “This bill strengthens the hand of the extremists in Turkey, the xenophobes, the extreme nationalists. Yes, Turkish society has to face its past, to prevent any sort of repetition in the future. If I believed that this bill would force the Turkish government to acknowledge the truth, I would support it. But it won’t.”

For his part, “A Shameful Act” author Taner Akcam acknowledges the force of these pragmatic arguments — but rejects them.

“Look, we can make a list of reasons why this resolution will make matters worse,” Akcam said in a phone interview from his office at the University of Minnesota. “First, it explicitly politicizes the problem. Second, it makes a historic problem a diplomatic fight between the United States and Turkey. Third, it increases the aggressive attacks of the Turkish government against those inside and outside the country. Fourth, it increases the animosity and hatred against Armenians generally in Turkey. Fifth, it can never solve the problem. It aggravates the problem.

“OK, so we’ve made this list,” Akcam went on. “But what is the answer? Whoever is against the resolution must show an alternative to the Armenian people. Unless you give an alternative policy, saying ‘Shut up and stop’ is not a policy. The Armenians don’t have any options. As long Turkey criminalizes the past, as long as Turkey kills journalists, as long as Turkey drags its intellectuals from court to court, as long as Turkey punishes the people who use the G-word, as long as Turkey doesn’t have any diplomatic relations with Armenia, as long as Turkey threatens everybody in the world who opens the topic of historical wrongdoing, it is the legitimate right of a victim group to make its voice heard.”

Akcam dismisses the argument that the time was not yet ripe for the resolution. “You can use the timing argument forever and ever. Who will decide when the timing is right?”

But Akcam argues that a long-term solution requires much more than a U.S. resolution. He says two steps are necessary: Turkey and Armenia must establish normal relations, and Turks must learn that confronting their history does not threaten their Turkish identity, but strengthens it. This means that Turks should look at the conflict not as a zero-sum game in which any Armenian gain is a Turkish loss, but as a necessary part of the process of becoming a democratic nation. It’s an approach to resolving bitter historical grievances called “transitional justice,” and it has been effective in helping resolve historical grievances between Germany and the Czech Republic, within South Africa and in other places.

The Armenians, too, need to rethink their approach, Akcam said. In the new paradigm, the Armenian diaspora would present its policy not as being totally against Turkey, but for a new democratic Turkey. “Until now this was a conventional war between Turkey and Armenian diaspora, and congressional resolutions were the effective weapon in this conventional war,” Akcam said. “What I’m saying is we should stop thinking in these conventional ways.”

http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2007/10/16/armenian_genocide/

Some of what is said there is, I suppose, what you’re trying to say, although you appear to dispute the idea that Genocide occurred. Well, whatever the circumstances and reasons for what happened which Armenians and Turks will argue about forever it would seem, one thing is clear. That is, the term Genocide was actually coined by Raphael Lemkin with the Armenian and Jewish experiences as its basis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael_Lemkin

Regardless, I have no bad feelings towards Turks. My only dislike is of nationalists on both sides. In fact, as I said in a comment on Amerikan Turk’s post, I despise nationalism in all shapes and forms. Patriotism is something different, but anyway.

Mr. Goskel

I respect your thoughts but this is exactly your problem and that is why more and more countries will recognize the Armenian Genocide whether you like it or not.
Also understand Armenians need not to prove anything to the Turks as I said before the Facts speak for them selves like it or not we have the proof. And it is being recognized by world bodies.
Also understand that you are lucky to have an Armenian answering your propagandist questions.

Unfortunately Turks like Armenians have too much pride I don't disagree with this even as an Armenians. But this time The Turks have to face up to the FACTS and realize the truth.
As long as you deny the Genocide and a good example off this is Article 301 which doesn’t even allow free speech in your so called democratic country, only proves to the world you are hiding something.
And please lay off the Azeri issue, that is resolved we took our historic lands and the war is over as we see it if the Azeri’s don't like it or the Turks well that’s an issue you have to live with.
And the so called Kojali massacres, it was war and many innocent people died on all fronts.
Baroness Caroline Cox has eye witness accounts of the brutal slaughter that went on in Karabakh by the Azeri’s.

Let me conclude by saying we have no animosity between the Turks off today we have always made this clear. But if you or any one else disagree with the Historic truth then you are as guilty as those who committed the horrific acts.

Raffi

For those who want information this is a good read.

Why Does a Close U.S. Ally Deny Its Genocide? (Part Three of Three) http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/index.php?id=1385035
================
Why Does a Close U.S. Ally Deny Its Genocide? (Part Two of Three)http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/index.php?id=1385001
================
Why Does a Close U.S. Ally Deny Its Genocide? (Part One of Three)http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/index.php?id=1384987

Alexander's way of thinking is seem very common, among all Armenian hardliners, and difficult to think othervise for most moderate Armenians.

"Why should they change their story, why should they care about Ottoman Archives, why should they care for creating a commission to reveal truth for what actually happened, why should they care,... since they got many countires to believe in their story?"

Turkey need to focus on explaining their side to western people, parlementariens with proof, documents, not only from Ottoman Archives, but British, Rusia, US...

Turkey neglected this for so many decades, you can not easily find anything in the western world (book stores, libraries...) trying to explain and confront Armenian propaganda.
22 years ago, I saw a book on every door step in the apartment that I used to live. They had 1 at our door, I read it. The book was full of hatret and propaganda against Turks.

That is why it is almost impossible to talk and explain anything to even moderate Armenians.

Raffi,

Wake up and smell the coffee. You talk about facts. What facts? Please give me hardcore facts that prove that there was an Armenian Genocide. Where? This evidence does not exist no where and never will. The only way the Armenian's try to gain recognition is by appealing to the prejudice of Europeans. Why have European countries recognised the Armenian Genocide. Why hasn't countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, China, Thailand or even Australa recognised this so called Genocide. Many of the countries that do recognise Genocide are states that are mainly anti-Turkish and anti-Islamic. But also you are hurting your own cause be trying to get recognition of Genocide from countries that are guilty of Genocide. Argentina, Chile, Germany, Italy, France. Who else is next? I did mention maybe previously in my article that maybe you should get countries like Rwanda or Cuba do recognise your phoney Genocide. May I also mention South Africa to your list as well.

Turks are more than willing to face up to facts. Yes, article 301 does exist in Turkey there is no denying it. But the problem is not only the law itself but also overzealous state prosecutors who want to make a name for themselves. Many people have been convicted of article 301 but also there have been many people who have been charged with article 301 but the charges were subsequently dropped. In Turkey there is a debate raging about the events of 1915. But you also neglect to mention this isn't the case in Armenia right now. A similar article does also exist in Armenia, any person who opposes Genocide can be charged.

So Raffi I ask you again provide evidence that shows a Genocide did occur, if you don't have any please don't waste my time your time or anyone elses time. Forgeries don't make evidence, but rather a lack of evidence on your part. You and many of your friends just need to grow up and live in the real world. I'll give you some advice and some tips on proving a Genocide.

1) You need to establish that 1.5 million Armenian's did actually live in Turkey before 1915.

2) If 1.5 million Armenian's were killed as many of you claim then you need to go to Turkey and show mass graves.

3) If by any chance you do find mass graves then you need to prove that those mass graves are the bodies of Armenian's not any other race.

4) You need to examine Ottoman archives which states that Genocide did occur. Meaning, there was a clear intent by the Ottoman government to literally kill all Armenians of Turkey.

If you can prove these 4 basic facts then your on your way to proving that Genocide did take place. But I highly doubt that the Armanian's have this evidence since firstly 1.5 million Armenian's did not live in Turkey before 1915, the census figures taken by the Ottoman government of the time does not show that 1.5 million Armenians lived in Turkey. There are maybe mass graves in Turkey, but this maybe that of dead Turks, Kurds or Arabs. X-ray analysis and bone analysis can provide these clues. To examine Turkish archives you will need to be fluent in Turkish but also be able to read Ottoman Turkish. Since Turks don't know Ottoman Turkish at all I highly doubt you or any Armenian's can study these archives.

May I also mention that Genocide has a legal meaning. This was adopted by the UN in 1948 and cannot be applied retrospectively. So legally the alleged 'Armenian Genocide' will only be that, alleged.

I think you and your Armenian friends have their work cut out to prove this phoney 'Genocide' allegations scientifically. I seriously doubt you can ever prove it.

Essentially speaking this is a grudge nothing more or less. 92 years is a long time to carry a grudge. Many backward people have bloodfeuds that last years and don't take 92 years. They may pass from one generation to another which is then resolved. Raffi you and your friends seriously need to move on. Your friends in America need to leave their old grudges behind and try and enjoy life. I am surprised that this has been festering for 92 years.

In regards to Azerbaijan Raffi, Armenia is guilty of war crimes and a clear violation of International Law. These are facts Raffi. Do you wanna know more cold hard facts? 1.5 million Azeri's are displaced due to an illegal occupation of Azeri land by the Armenia. You talk about reclaiming your historic lands. Well Raffi wrong, these are not your lands it belongs to Azerbaijan and this is backed up by International Law.

Finally Raffi let me conclude by saying that you and your Armenian friends need to leave your grudges behind and move on.

While I do not agree with most of the sentiments stated in Akyol's article, I find it alarmingly honest about general Turkish public sentiment about the entire Armenian issue. My biggest argument is what makes France, Spain, any European country and especially the United states qualified to pass resolutions on events that occured almost a century ago. Let's face it: Spain, under the cruel domination of the Catholic Church expelled all Jews from Spain in 1492 and those Sephardic Jews, including my family found refuge in the Ottoman Empire. The French systematically exercised many barbaric acts on their own people who wanred nothing but freedom. The Americans systematically destroyed the entire Indian culture, life and existence and performed incredible cruelties to slave Africans, tortured, raped, and killed them yet today these very countries are clling themselves the cradles of modern civilizations and pillars of democracy? That is absolutely laughable! The US House is motivated only by the efforts of the lobbyists and their own political agenda.
When Nazi Germany destroyed the European Jewry, unlike France, Italy, Greece and many others, Turkey was the only country in the region to stand up to the Nazi regime to provided a safe haven for many Jews. Let's focus on the issues of today. Let's do something about Darfur first!
Also can we clear the issue that the General Armenian population during WWI was propelled by ambition of snagging its own piece of the 'SICK MAN' pie and for a piece of land committed treason against the Ottoman Empire and joined Russians, aiding the killings of Turks. Yes, I am sure Armenians died, so did Turks! The truth is Armenians never pursued this issue diplomatically with the Turkish Government today but instead the Armenian terrorist organization ASALA killed many innocent Turkish diplomats.
I am a proud American citizen and also proud of my Turkish-Jew heritage. Let's leave the issue to historians who can approach it from many different angles and come up with a solution. Not the retarted American and European politicians where their true agenda is nothing but serving themselves.
Peace to all,

Nick

The Ottoman archives are not open FYI.
Tamer Akcan is one of the few who could spent some time there. Limited.
Also, a lot of the archives are destroyed.

First, the impression is given in Mr Akyol's piece that Turks massacred in response to Armenian massacres is some tit-for-tat fashion.

But, there are at least two things to consider here : first, that going back to the 1890's Abdul Hamid II was slaughtering Armenians in the tens of thousands. And, what is the date of the Armenian attacks against Turks ? Are they revenge attacks in response to the genocide of 1915 ?

I think that Turkish politicians must have a small internal voice which whispers to them something like:
"oh my if we own up to this we will have ENORMOUS reparations to pay the Armenians".

I'm sure that they also don't have the confidence in their international diplomatic abilities to be able to navigate through such an admission although i personally think it is possible and necessary for that society's ethical advancement.

Armenians call the ethnic cleansing in Khojaly "so-called"! See, the Turkish government ordered media stations to stop referring to the Armenian genocide as "so-called" or "alleged". I'd like to see even one dissenting opinion coming out of Armenia on this issue. That's something, given Armenia's record on human rights, is not possible.

So the Armenians justify their imperialism by saying they took "historic lands"? Armenians are not only illegally occupying Karabagh, they are illegally occupying lands which up until the war were predominantly Azeri!

Then they say "it was war and innocent people died on all sides". If they truly believe that then why is it they so vigorously oppose that stance when it's taken by Turks?

Let's be honest. Armenians are hypocrites interested only in destroying Turkey's commercial and political opportunities with the rest of the world. Turkey is going to keep moving forward with democratic and free-market principles, whether or not Armenia stays hungry and backwards is really of no consequence to these developments.

First, let me point out that I sign my comments Raffi Kojian, not Raffi, so the ones signed Raffi are a different person, just to clarify.

Next I will say the conversation has branched in so many directions that I can't begin to address what is being said. I will say however that the misinformation that so many Turks believe, exemplified by what is written above, will only change with time and generations.

The recognition of the genocide by countries is irrelevant indeed, but the recognition by the vast majority of historians, and virtually all not in the pay of the Turkish state is telling. The recognition by the association of genocide scholars is telling. The recognition by the International Center for Transitional Justice, who was asked by a commission of Armenians and anti-genocide Turks to study the subject is telling. The fact that nobody but the successor government to the guilty party accepts it is telling. You say more studies need to be done. Go, go and study and study. All the facts are in, and everything, EVERYTHING new, only confirms the facts. There is a reason your government has not revealed any truth other than the ones Armenians have been talking about, with all of it's resources.

So you can talk about politics, conspiracies, discrimination, you can try to blame the Armenians, and look for their bones, and then not believe they are Armenian bones, you can do basically whatever you like, since nobody is holding a gun to your head... but Armenians had a gun to their head, and it went off, and one day the Turkish nation will feel guilt not only for the genocide, but also for what it put Armenians through after the genocide... the psychological torture, and the assimilation called the white genocide.

Those are the facts, no matter how much you cry about them. I suspect that most of you are actually suspicious if not rather certain that much of what you say is a lie, but your defensiveness and misplaced pride forces you to act out.

That's all I have to say... except that if you think I don't truly want peace, you are completely mistaken. But I won't sell out my grandparents tortured lives and the truth for it. Ever.

Raffi Kojian

It's sad to see people writing with an 'air' of wisdom.
Mustafa made an opening, but it seems that 'Turkeyi' is not 'ready' to discuss the past.
How can you discuss history if several laws prohibit a certain 'outcome'. In simple words: we cannot discuss the past as long as there are laws which doesn't allow to speak freely..
Read: art. 301
Regards

To Raffi and Raffi Kojian,

You are carrying a 92 year old grudge. That is 92 years too long. Your wrong when you say you don't wanna live in peace. The fact that you and your Armenian friends have been campaigning for 92 years to get recognition for a 'Genocide' that NEVER occurred goes to show that you are not interested in peace but holding onto your 92 year old grudge.

You talk about historians who recognise 'Genocide' as experts but rather historians who don't recognise 'Genocide' as people who are paid by the Turkish government. Now guys you are in a tragic virtual dreamworld if you think that this is the case. You are dead wrong when you mention that virtually all historians recognise the 'Genocide' completely wrong.

The Turkish prime minister asked the Armenian prime minister to form a comittee to study the events of 1915. The reason for this is not due to pressure from outsiders, or there is something to hide, but rather to 'resolve' this issue for once and for all. The fact that you have a neighbour that is accussing you of 'Genocide' for 92 years is really disturbing indeed. Therefore to resolve this issue once and for all is in the interest of both nations. But this was flatly rejected by the Armenian prime minister, the reason for his rejection is due to the 'Genocide' being fact. This goes to show how not so interested the Armenian's are in resolving this grudge and living in peace.

I wrote in my previous blog what basic evidence needs to established to prove allegations of 'Genocide' but the Armenian and pro-Armenian lobby groups and historians can't ever provide for this.

You Armenian's just don't understand that the American people don't really care about you or your phoney 'Genocide' allegations. I don't live in America but if you were to walk down the street in America and if you asked them about Armenian's they would have no idea or clue. The reason why the 'Genocide' resolution gets so far is due to interest group politics in the US. The Armenian's have got great resources in the US and are able to take advantage of the situation. But have failed to get a resolution in Congress and will fail for many years to come.

I just hope this issue can be resolved soon so that we all can live in peace and tranquility and so that we can move on with our lives.

Mr Goksel Doganay

As i said in my previous comments , The Facts speak for them selves.
Please find the link below for education purposes.
and this is just a portion of what is out their .
if you can back your argument let me see your eyewitness accounts from other sources other then Turkish ones .

And to clear this for everyone , US was a neutral power during WWI . so their was no reason to take the side of the Armenians.

http://news.google.com.au/archivesearch?as_ldate=1896&as_hdate=1925&q=armenian+massacres&lnav=od&btnG=Search

Hans and Onnik,

Your reference TANER AKCAM was a leader of illegal terrorist organization in 1980's and lead those who killed dozens of innocent people-BTW most of them university students.

Don't you have any other trustworhty sources other than an bloody ex-inmate ?

Regards,

Guven

Hans-Onnik,
I don't think the seletivity of your perception will handle properly but here one point of view from a RELIABLE source:

British History Professor Norman Stone's piece from Chicago Tribune on Oct. 16.
He said:
'In 1914, when World War I began in earnest, Armenians living in what is now Turkey attempted to set up a national state. Armenians revolted against the Ottoman government, began what we would now call 'ethnic cleansing' of the local Turks. Their effort failed and caused the government to deport most Armenians from the area of the revolt for security reasons.'' He also notes that large Armenian populations of Istanbul, Izmir and Aleppo were not affected by the deportation. Internal Ottoman documents talk of ''deportation'' in the context of widespread Armenian nationalist risings in the early spring of 1915. The Russians and the French used Armenian regiments and legionnaires. The Ottomans themselves in 1916 put on trial about 1,300 men for crimes during the deportation of the Armenians in 1915, convicted many and executed some, including a governor.

Have a nice day.
Guven

Raffi,

I am getting sick and tired of your anti-Turkish racist hysteria. There is NO Genocide and you have no facts. It is as simple as that. No facts equals no 'Genocide'. Your arguments for 'Genocide' are as reliable as the tooth ferry's existance. As I said before in my blogs Morgenthau's reports during that time were forgeries and lies to turn public opinion against Turkey. The Armenian lobby and their friends have no reliable documents or cold hard facts to prove 'Genocide'.

You mention eye witness accounts about killing of Armenians by the Turks. If you have been listening to the Turkish side from the beginning, the killing of innocent Armenian's have never been in dispute. That is why during that time people were tried and executed for their crimes. But this does not constitute 'Genocide'. But also there are many eye witnesses who witnessed Armenian atrocities against the Turkish civilian population.

International law is on Turkey again on both fronts, firstly Turkey quelled unrest started by the Armenians which Turkey as a state is allowed to do by International Law. Secondly 'Genocide' is a legal term that was adopted by UN in 1948 which CANNOT be applied retrospectively morally or legally.

So there you have it in a nutshell. You have no basis for 'Genocide', yes innocent people died on both sides but this does not constitute 'Genocide'.

Raffi since the Armenians accuse the Turks of 'Genocide' it is up to you and the burden is on you to prove it. Guilty until proven innocent and appealing to European prejuice against the Turks is not a very prudent way about proving your phoney 'Genocide' arguments.

Don't waste your time and anyone else's time if you go and on about how much proof you have when you don't have them. And for you information the US was not a neutral power during the first world war but cided with allies. The Armenian's contributed to their own fate by making the wrong choices and by their criminal actions. Crying foul against Turkey 92 years later because you got influence in the US is really a disgrace.

Guven,
I know that Tamer was imprisoned. That doesn't say anything about his current research.
And Norman Stone is a joke..))
Comiing back on Mustafa his article, its a good piece.
regards

Hans,

Than you know why Taner Akcam (not Tamer)was imporsened. He joined and lead THKP-C (Turkiye Halk Kurtulus Partisi in other words: Turkish People's Liberation Party)— a terrorist organization that was implicated in the assassinations and killings of numerous far-right militants, Turkish security officials, and American and NATO military personnel.

Now Hans, is this really your best shot? You guys are really joke.

Guven

Oh my God! Turkey imprisoned Taner?!?! Why didn't anyone tell us this? He must be even worse than that evil satanic man in India... what was his name? Who tortured the wise British colonial government and was imprisoned for it? Oh yes, his name was Mahatma Gandi. Now I see how hard it must be for the Turkish government, being terrorized by evil Kurds who don't understand that their Turkish masters know best, and people like Taner, who keep trying to excersize freedom of speech in a country which doesn't have it.

Poor, poor Guven... let me get you a tissue.

:-)

Raffi Kojian,

Give Guven a tissue? Oh please get yourself a tissue for heaven's sake, aren't you the one who has posted blogs on this website blaming the Turkish government for events that occurred 92 years ago. Aren't you and your Armenian friends on a worldwide campaign to get recogntion for a phoney 'genocide' that never took place.

Racism has no place anywhere especially on this blog or any other forum. Your anti-Turkish rantings and 92 year old grudge make you look sad and outdated. Why don't you just get with it? Move on and enjoy life.

Also for your information, there are no Kurds or Turks living in Armenia is there? But there are Armenian's and Kurds living both in Azerbaijan and Turkey. What does this show? Well you go off and figure it out yourself. Sounds like Armenia is heaven on Earth which possesses wonderful qualities such as freedom of expression. Gee, maybe I should immigrate to this wonderful country and maybe live in peace and happiness. Oh maybe I should not wait and buy a direct flight to Armenia that would be fantastic, hey I could be the only Turk in Armenia how cool would that be? The thought just excites me.

I tell you what Raffi Kojian, I think I will immigrate to this paradise called Armenia and you can hold onto your 92 year old grudge. Maybe you can clock 100 years soon hey. Now that sounds like a plan.

Raffi,

I see what you and other Armenians can do; You would cheer for Usame Bin Ladin as well, as long as he defends your cause.

I guess you didn't read this part, Here you see who Taner Akcam is again, don't defend sick minded people and be one of them:

Taner AKCAM joined and lead THKP-C: a terrorist organization that was implicated in the assassinations and killings of numerous far-right militants, Turkish security officials, and American and NATO military personnel.

IT IS EXTREMELY SAD, YET PROMINENT. THE HISTORICAL FACTS ON THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE IS A TOUCHY SUBJECT FOR THE "TURKS", AND QUITE CONTRARY THE TURKISH PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN APPERENTLY LIED TO ALL THIS YEARS SHOULD BE ABLE TO DISTINGUISH AND KNOW THE FACTS SHOULDN'T THEY. WHETHER, PEOPLE WERE MURDERED, MASSACRED, ISOLATED, OR DEPORTED, CAN ALL BE CLASSIFIED AS HISTORICAL FACTS SHOULD'T IT?. AFTER ALL TURKS LOVE THEIR INFIDEL SECOND CLASS CITIZENS DON'T THEY?, THEY KNOW THE FORSAKEN CHURCHES, PALACES, VILLAGES WHERE ONES A PROUD ARMENIAN NATION THRIVED, LIVED, AND PROSPERED,THE MONUMENTAL STRUCTURES, STATUES, ARTIFACTS THAT THEY BUILT, AND NOT JUST FOR THEIR HERITAGE OR PRIDE, BUT FOR ALL OF HUMANITY. THE "TURKS" KNOW THIS DON'T THEY, "AFFLICT THE ARMENIANS". UNLESS OF CORSE THEY JUST GOT UP SOME DAY AS A NATION AND UNANIMOUSLY DECIDED TO ABONDON ALL THIS, TO ABONDON THEIR HOMELAND, HISTORY, RELIGION, TO BE BLOWN AWAY LIKE DUST IN THE WIND. THE TRUTH IS,THE FACTS ABOUT THE "GENOCIDE" CANT AND WILL NOT CHANGE, IT CAN HOWEVER, UNDER CERTAIN POLITICAL ICONS BE ALTERED, CHANGED TO BE MORE SUITABLE UNDER POLITICAL PRETENSES, OR PERHAPS TO INTENTIONALLY TWIST OR MODIFE HISTORY FOR AGAIN POLITICAL INTRESTS, AND DEPRIVE NOT JUST THE ARMENIANS OF THE TRUTH, BUT THE WORLD.
THIS "WEB PROPAGANDA" CONFLICTS MORE BOILED DEBATES ON THIS ISSUE, AND WHO SHELL BENEFIT. HOWEVER, I'M HUMBELED IN A WAY BECAUSE, THIS ISSUE IS ALIVE AND OVERDUE, AND ITS NOT JUST AN ARMENIAN ISSUE, BUT SURVIVAL OF ONE TRIBE OF PEOPLE, IT IS A HUMANITY FACTOR. THE ARMENIANS, HAVE A RICH HISTORY, RICH CULTURE, AND HAVE CONTRIBUTED MUCH TO HUMANITY. UNFORTUNATELLY THE REGION OF ARMENIAS HISTORY AS WE ARE BEGINING TO LEARN, HAS BEEN A TRAGIC ONE, CNE WITH CENTURIES OF TURMOIL, OPPRESSION, MANIPULATION, AND IRONY, WHO COULD EXPECT LESS WITH BARBARIC NEIGHBORS.
YES, THERE WAS A TIME WHEN ARMENIANS CONQUERED OTHER NATIONS, WHERE THEY FOUGHT FOR THEIR EXISTENCE, BUT THEY HAVE NEVER BANISHED OR EXILED ANY OF THEIR NEIGHBORS. IRONICALLY, TODAY ALL OF THEIR CEMETERIES, CHURCHES, ARE ALL BEING DESTROYED IN TURKEY AND AZERBAIJAN AS IF NOT TO SHOW THEIR EXISTENCE. SO FACTS AFTER ALL DO SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES, AND THE QUESTION IS CAN THERE EVER BE PEACE FOR THIS PEOPLE IN THIS REGION, A HARSH REGION IN THE WORLD. THATS WHY GOD HAS GIVEN THEM THE WORLD, AND WHO KNOWS TEN, TWENTY, EVEN ONE HUNDRED YEARS FROM NOW WHAT WIIL BE THE FAITHS AND HISTORY OF THE ARMENIANS.

GOING ROUND IN CIRCLES

Look at all the messages here. People going round in circles. Hatred. The same arguments coming up that we have heard a million times before. Nothing new to bring to the table by either side.

I feel sorry for Armenians. The belief of genocide is their right but Armenians are raised with such an intense hatred of the Turk that we cannot reason with them. The moderates who seek dialogue are sidelined by these fanatic Armenians who seem to have built an identity on the hatred of Turks. Very sad. How can one’s parents transfer this hate through generations? Instead of flooding these children’s hearts with love, Armenian parents prefer to perpetuate the bad feeling instead of helping future generations free themselves from it.

It is important to note that Turks do not feel hatred for Armenians. We are not raised with hateful parents who preach a psychological war on the Armenian nation. Maybe our history is too grand and we are too big a nation to engage in such petyness and detrimental tuition. As Turks, we have clear irritation and dislike with these Armenian cry babies who do nothing but lament and taunt. But Turks do not hate Armenians as they hate us.

MOVING ON

History is full of civilizations that once existed and no longer do. These are unchangeable features of the world. If we look at another Anatolian example, the Hittites, this was also a beautiful civilization with a rich culture, history and art, just like the Armenians. Events unfolded which ultimately led to the crumble of this nation, its dispersal and integration into others. Nobody calls himself Hittite anymore and for a long time now too. History has countless other examples.

This is the path of Armenians and the failed state Armenia. It’s just a question of time. It’s been almost 100 years since the massacres. Armenians have got nowhere. The diaspora is still winging and crying whilst Armenia remains a joke. As time goes by, the situation gets worse, but Armenian mentality does not evolve. In another 100 years, the situation will only be worse for them.

Ok, Armenians believe that there was a genocide. Lets say Turkey says Ok there was (we know there was not but for hypothetical reasons), what next? Will Armenians move on with their life and start building a serious country? Or will they lament further and turn recognition to reparations etc? I think the latter because their hearts are poisoned with their hate. I have seen French Armenians hold rallies where they honestly believe, from their heart, that East Turkey will be part of Armenia one day. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at such illusions and unachievable aims.

Armenians of Europe and the US, move on. Your hate is consuming you and Armenia. Let your hearts be flooded by Love, even if you feel wronged, be good Christians, turn the other cheek. All you can ever achieve is the annoyance of Turkey, nothing more. The war for your independence and territory that you waged on us at the turn of the 20th century with the help of your Russian comrades is over. Finished. No More. Ended. You lost it badly, very badly. Now move on, for your own sake, nobody elses.

Bravo, hear hear

I read every single message, and I thought the Armenians kept their composure rather better than we Turks.

I think the problem we have here is one of a deficit of knowledge. If the historians of both countries could get their act together and write a coherent history with a common narrative, laymen could read it and get to the bottom of this. As it is, people have to sift through countless sources the credibility of which is under dispute. I like a little bit of detective work but this is ridiculous. I am buying every book on this subject I can find in the hope that I will be able to read them in my lifetime.

I'm happy to see the Internet expedite the exchange of knowledge. I feel that reconciliation is at hand.

Emme,

I agree with you, the problem we have here is one of a deficit of knowledge but among your folks. While your idea of "the historians of both countries could get their act together" sounds good but when you say "write a coherent history" you really mean rewrite the history. History is not business or politics where you can agree on something mutually acceptable, make compromises. You either accept the truth or deny it, there is no half truth but the lie. Though, I think for you there is a hope there, you sound like an honest person without bias. Which books have you bough so far by the way?

Armen,

The deficit of knowledge as you call is not on the Turkish side but on the Armenian side. Creating an atmosphere of hate and revenge and on top of that an assumption of an alleged genocide does not make for a coherant history. As you say in your own works, "You either accept the truth or deny it, there is no half truth but the lie", so far to date the Armenians have provided no hard core facts that 'Genocide' has taken place. The Armenian's know this perfectly well. The evidence the Armenian's have of this phoney alleged 'Genocide' is exactly that, phoney and full of fogeries.

All that has been offered is old and recycled opinions going around in circles which offer nothing new or shed light on on the events of 1915. But rather reveal a sad and tragic psychiatric condition that exists within the Armenian community. Carrying a 92 year old grudge and accusing the Turks of genocide is like the fanatical Jewish settlers in Palestine occupying their territories and then claiming that God has given the West Bank and Gaza to them. These two beliefs are abhorrent and have no place in a civilized world. These people belong in a mental institute.

The most reliable evidence to investigate this alleged events is in Turkey in the form of archives that are written in Ottoman Turkish. Therefore a knowledge of the Turkish language and old Ottoman texts is a pre-requisite to make a valued judgement. An example that I can ask is to investigate the population of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. Many scholars naively have made certain predictions without reading the Ottoman archives. However without a strong command of Turkish and knowledge of Ottoman texts it highly unlikely to take any scholar seriously to allege genocide against Turkey.

In conclusion if you don't know Turkish, read old Ottoman texts, read Ottoman archives then any work done by scholars cannot by accuse Turkey of 'Genocide'. These are the facts it is as simple as that. To the Armenian community, if you can't achieve these simple tasks then stop wasting your time and our time and move on.

Armen: Thanks for telling me "what I really meant". Perhaps what you "really mean" is that Turks should rewrite their history to become aligned with the Armenian one. It's okay for Turks to rewrite their history but not Armenians because the Armenians are right? What I want is for historians to dispassionately approach the issue and hammer out something. If people supposedly armed with all the truth can't come to an agreement what chance does the general public stand?

I do not enjoy the prospect of playing Sherlock Holmes, when I could be spending my time on more pleasant subjects, but I feel annoyed that there are two divergent explanations.

Unfortunately, you are mistaken in your view that history is not business or politics. You should perhaps have said that history should not be politicized but it is. Misdeeds great and small are swept under the rug and sometimes forgotten. This is not a problem endemic to the Ottomans, of course. I'm not interested in tallying misdeeds in order to decide who was wicked or treacherous. This is not an Olympic contest.

To answer your other question: I own but have not yet read all the Armenian authors (Dadrian, Balakian, etc.) I will do the same for the Turkish side and drudge through them one at a time. In an ideal world the national archives would be online for verification but I guess that is asking for too much.

Goksel Doganay,

Your statement that only turkish archives are credible source of information is no more than a hypocrisy for the simple fact that you don't let anyone without bias to access them and even prosecute people who express contrary opinion. Luckily, there is abundance of proof outside Turkey and whatever authentic documents came out of Turkey in the past expose your lies. But unfortunately for people like you there is no hope, for as long as you drink your own coolaid it is pointless to try to prove you that Earth is round because no matter how many satellite pictures you show them to prove Earth is round they’ll keep insisting it’s flat and will show pictures from the angle where it appears to be flat and will find so called scientists who can come up with the theory to back it up.

Emre,

If you want to read some books about the Armenian genocide, I would recommend books by Taner Akçam and also by Vahakn Dadrian's.

Darian's book are, to my great amazement, also published in Turkish by Belge Yayinlari.

Selam .. Celal

Emre,

I should probably clarify that I didn't mean to imply that your idea of reconciliation of history is a front for revisionist agenda but rather a naive notion that truth can come out of negotiation. Truth can come out of arguments and it already did. But the problem is that your country doesn't have freedom of speech or freedom of information. The good starting point would be not in insulting armenian people with lies of denial but first in allowing turkish people to freely discuss it within their society, allowing information from outside and giving access to the documents. Once, turkish side grows above the denial stage I'm sure armenians will be more willing to engage in discussions. Though, we don't really need historians to tell us what happened to us, it's still too fresh and it touched everyone. Almost everyone has had a loss in the family during that time.

Armen,

If you allege that 'genocide' then you must prove the facts. Since these alleged incidents occurred in Turkey the most reliable sources are Turkish sources. If I wanted to learn British history wouldn't it make sense to research the British government archives or if I wanted to learn German history I would need to learn German and read the German archives. This is common sense not rocket science.

What the Armenian lobby have as proof of alleged 'genocide' are scholars who can't speak or write Turkish, never been to Turkey or been in touch with any Turkish government department. For example, if you were to research the Armenian population historically in Turkey, if you've never been to Turkey, speak or write Turkish how in the world can you make a valued judgement?

Interestingly the Turkish government has made these archives fully available for historians to study. A joint study was offerred to the Armenian government to resolve this issue but was turned down. The Turkish archives are open without bias and prejudice for study.

Now Armen these are the requirements to prove that 'genocide' did take place. However what you have offered is nothing new but just old recycled opinions.

Goksel Doganay,

Did they only teach you write and not read? It's pointless to address your comments any further when you flat out lie. Turkish archives are not open to anyone without bias and probably even destroyed and anyone with contrary opinion is subject to persecution (art.301, etc). Vahakn Dadrian is fluent in turkish and his critic with lack of credentials, his own agenda in denial and on the pay of turkish government Guenter Lewy doesn't read in turkish. Taner Akçam doesn't know turkish too? In a democracy besides the evidence found on the defendant and defendant's account of the events people consider statements of independent unbiased witnesses, especially when defendant is obstructing the justice and tampering with evidence. Your denials amount to ignorance multiplied by arrogance: ignorance due to lack of freedom and arrogance due to belief that you got away with the crime.

"...so called Christian countries , like France , England , Germany. who left our people to die and they will pay as well when the time is right."

Raffi,

No matter how much you try to seem subjective and deny that you are seeking revenge, you gave yourself away. How will you make the so called Christian nations pay, I wonder? France, a nation that housed and fed the Armenian Diaspora for many years, and you are going to make it pay... I think this is called "biting the hand that feeds you..."

And the rest of the audience here, I think you are omitting one critical factor: Even if there was a genocide, the party to blame for it is the Ottoman Empire, not the Republic of Turkey. So go find the sultan's family wherever they are, because the Republic of Turkey, which is founded in 1923 cannot be held responsible for any event happened prior to that date - period.

Armen,

Have you paid any attention at all or am I wasting my time. The Ottoman archives are OPEN, the Turkish government has offered to set a committee to study the events of 1915 with the Armenian government which was flatly rejected. Just because scholars disagree with your claim of 'genocide' does not make them under the pay of the Turkish government. If that is your only way of trying to discredit people who reject the charge of 'genocide' then you are a miserable human being considering that you are holding a 92 year old grudge.
Also I did mention in my previous blogs that you must also be able to read in Ottoman Turkish since all the archives are written in the Arabic texts. If you paid enough attention you will realise that you need to have these criteria to start to analyse the 'alleged genocide'. If you can't read Ottoman Turkish, speak Turkish then you have no credibility.
Yes Turkey does have limited freedom of speech which is unpredictable, but at least that is changing and there is real debate on the issue of the 'alleged genocide' which is in stark contrast to Armenia which opposes anyone who disagrees with 'genocide' not being commited. So don't ever claim that Armenia is a free democratic country and Turkey isn't.
What evidence do you have that unbiased eyewitnesses witnessed the Turkish government kill 1.5 million people? Don't you think that if a government is going to cover up 'genocide' they would get rid of eyewitnesses especially foreigners in the form of diplomats and generals? Also can you explain to me if the Turkish government was on a campaign of destruction against the Armenian community why wasn't the Armenian quarter in Jerusalem destroyed?
If anything it is pointless to address your comments if you suffer from a psyhiatric condition, with a 92 year old grudge and on top of that a loser attitude.
My only advice to you is that if you live in a country that has given you sanctuary then turn on them and start killing innocent people and then get caught in the act and thrown out don't expect any sympathy.
To H. Ulas Ograk, Turkey is the successor state to the Ottoman Empire. Since the events prior to 1923 did lead to the formation of the Republic of Turkey I think it does matter. Turkey isn't just a state formed out of thin air in 1923 but an old state that is almost 1000 years old in Anatolia. It is our duty as Turks to honour our ancestors and build a prosperous Turkey not hold a 92 year grudge and be a crybaby.

Goksel Doganay,

Lewy has been amply rewarded by Turkish authorities in Ankara and abroad through the launching of a massive campaign to distribute his book free of charge to libraries and to select groups of diplomats. Equally noteworthy, Lewy has been decorated at a special ceremony in Ankara with, ironically, the Insanliga Karss i Islenen Suçlar Yüksek Ödülü (High Award for Fighting in Opposition to Crimes Against Humanity) by the Avrasya Stratejik Arasstirmalar Merkezi (ASAM or, in English, the Center for Eurasian Strategic Studies). It may be worth noting that ASAM is a well-known organization whose mission includes the systematic denial of the Armenian genocide through propagandistic and partisan research and publications; the organization is sponsored and underwritten by the Turkish government. Is that what you call "Just because scholars disagree with your claim of 'genocide' does not make them under the pay of the Turkish government.""?

"If that is your only way of trying to discredit people who reject the charge of 'genocide' then you are a miserable human being considering that you are holding a 92 year old grudge." No miserable human beings are those who committed the crime and those who cover and deny it.

"Also can you explain to me if the Turkish government was on a campaign of destruction against the Armenian community why wasn't the Armenian quarter in Jerusalem destroyed?" The reason they weren't able to annihilate armenians completely doesn't mean they haven't tried to or not guilty of anything. Some armenians were able to survive, escape or hide out, some owe it to the foreign presence and some in the area which is now called Republic of Armenia fought off turkish army. If they were able to finish armenians then today your line of defense would be saying what armenians, there were never armenians, they never existed, it was a myth, they were just some Christian turks, just like there are Mountain turks.

"My only advice to you is that if you live in a country that has given you sanctuary then turn on them and start killing innocent people and then get caught in the act and thrown out don't expect any sympathy." -Lies, all armenians did is asked for equal rights. Was that too much too ask for? Why would armenians prefer russian rule if they were treated fairly? And armenians by the way lived on their own land, land of their ancestors for over 4,000 years but regardless, your statement only proves the motive.

Goksel,

Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey are two separate states, two completely different entities. Turkey is not a state formed out of thin air, no, indeed, it is a state formed out of blood. And those who shed it are your true ancestors. Do not forget that the War of Independence was fought against the Ottoman Empire as well.

Armen,

Just as much right you have accussing Turkey of 'genocide', the Turkish government and the Turkish people have a right to reject the charge of 'genocide'. All I'm getting from you is a 92 year old grudge carrying on like an emotional crybaby with no real evidence other than the testimonies of alleged eyewitnesses and memoirs of Morganthau who by the way was a fraud.

Awarding scholarships to disprove Armenian claims of 'genocide' is a just and fair way of their phoney campaign. This includes money Armen which isn't for free. The Armenian community have established a industry out of a phoney 'genocide' campaign. Like making books and movies as well as compensation payouts by American insurance companies. So if anyone has an interest in carrying on with this phoney allegation of 'genocide' it is the Armenian community. There is nothing wrong with the Turkish government payrolling institutes to disprove their allegations. So are you suggesting that Turkey should not do anything but its ok for Armenians to make money out of this alleged 'genocide'. If anything it is a disgrace that you are willing to make money by insisting on alleging 'genocide'.

The Armenians lived with the Turkish people for well over 600 years. So if the Turks wanted to kill all Armenians don't you think 600 is a long time to commit this crime. Yet you expect people to believe that an organised army tried to kill a population after 600 years and that the Armenian army was able to fight off the Turkish army and however survived. Strange analysis since the Armenian army was a rag tag unit made up of wannabe generals.

By the way the Ottoman Empire was a multicultural country which gave all its citizens equal rights under a 'millet' system. This has never been denied. I don't know what I should do with your claim that Armenians wanted to be treated fairly under Russian laugh hard or laugh really really hard. The Soviet Union were one of the worst regimes in the world with crimes against humanity. Do you think a regime is going to treat you fairly when they are guilty of killing millions of their own people. I don't think so. Anatolia is Turkish territory not Armenian. Anatolia is filled with the blood of Turkish soldiers who have given their lives for Turkey for almost 1000 years. It will become your own country when you are willing to give your life to the country.

Your motives and claims are not genuine and full of holes. My only advice to you is get over it, you have failed and failed miserably to prove your point.

H. Ulas Ograk,

I can't believe I am having this discussion. The Ottoman Empire and Turkey are the same state where the republic was formed and the monarchy was ended. As Turkey was formed from blood so was the Ottoman Empire when formed in 1299. As for your claim that the war of independence was fought against the Ottoman Empire as well is very absurd considering that all the generals that fought for the republic were educated under the Ottoman system. The republic couldn't have been formed without the permission of the late Sultan since it was the Ottoman government that had all the wealth and power.

If Armenians were just deported from the eastern warzones, we could accept the "necessity of war thesis" of the Ottoman apologists.

But the small Armenian minority of cities (like Bursa, Ankara, Afyon and Eskisehir) were depoported weaken this thesis.

Troubling reports of massacres from the Ottoman Empire's wartime allies (Austro-Hungary and Germany) also weaken the thesis.

When I hear complaints of Armenian uprising it makes me think of reports of Americans from the 1800's complaining about Indian uprisings.

America's indiginous population massacred American settlers, but we should temper or judgement by understanding who came first and the colonial abuse that drove them to revolt.

The same goes for Armenians, they were in Anatolia 1000's of years before the Turks and were pushed by the same forces that pushed the Kurds and many Turks to revolt: corruption, abusive individuals and the absence of the rule of law.

To admit the errors of your ancestors makes you sensitive to your present treatement of minorities.

Jason,

There is a stark contrast between the Ottoman Armenian experience and the slaughter of Native Americans. American expansionism encouraged colonial settlement which impinged on indigenous settlements leading to conflict. Armenians on the other hand had coexisted with Turks, Kurds, and other Ottoman Muslims (Circassians, etc.) for well over half a millennium. Armenian uprisings coincided with foreign invasion on numerous fronts.

This would be more like the WWII internment of Japanese if Imperialist Japan invaded the West Coast and there was evidence of substantial logistical and military support among Japanese-Americans for the foreign invaders. The US government still relocated Japanese-Americans during the hysteria of WWII despite the non-existence of those factors.

I agree with your statement on the weakened thesis, but I think this had more to do with massive government/societal paranoia in the face of Dashnak and Hunchak uprisings, since the war was spilling over to many regions due to the Allied War effort.

Most notably, the French gathered Armenian refugees in a military contingent known as the Armenian Legion to wage war in southwestern regions of Turkey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Armenian_Legion

Even if it is a much smaller threat with minimal military capabilities, you can imagine that Ottoman officials viewed the danger of activities committed by Armenian separatists in Mersin or Adana with the same value as those in war torn Eastern Turkey.

Even up until the days of the Turkish independence war, cities as far west as Marash were occupied by the French and had been promised to be ceded to Armenian control. The local revolt that banished the French colonial backed Armenian administration is what garnered Marash its present name of Kahraman Maras(h) = Hero Marash.

In any event, I believe their definitely was inconsistency among the relocation program, but it had more to do with internal war and the mutual enmity that was created between Ottoman Muslims and Ottoman Christians during the waning days of the empire, as many minorities were promised a piece of the pie from the Allied Powers (Anatolian Greeks were promised a Pontus state and an Aegean attachment to Greece, Armenians were promised Eastern Anatolia, etc.)

I think it's pretty clear that the Ottoman government's intention was to relocate Armenians and others viewed as threats to internal security from the war zones that had been scenes of inter communal warfare, disease, starvation, and of course foreign invasion.

But, as any war, many innocent civilians felt the "collateral effects" of such actions. Many uncontrollable governors or those with personal vendettas meted out relocation orders on Armenian and other Christian minorities (such as Assyrians) in towns that may have had no serious threat posed by the local Armenian community.

However, the untouched status of many Western Anatolian Armenians such as those in Istanbul or regions such as Aleppo or the Jerusalem quarter should not be overlooked. If the relocation orders carried out genocidal intent, then it would have a stamp of central authority and no communities would have been shielded from a central government order.

Rather the evidence tends to a show a much more complicated picture: One that must evaluate intercommunal strife, a lack of centralized government control, and foreign invasion.

Indeed, many innocent Armenian civilians were driven from there lands and murdered. But, who cries for the Muslim civilian blood shed by Armenian revolutionaries and gangs in Eastern Anatolia?

My great-great grandmother was driven from the island of Crete by Greek brigands. Today there are no Muslims on the island of Crete. Similarly, the Muslim population of Yerevan that was decimated in the 19th century and sought refuge in present day Azerbaijan, Eastern Turkey, and Northern Iran? Don't we deserve a recognition? Are these examples of state sponsored genocide or intercommunal warfare?

It is only considered genocide if there is government intent. The Hague recently exonerated the current Serbian government from any genocidal conviction from the ethnic cleansing committed upon its Muslim population well over a decade ago.

Without proof of intent, the Armenian thesis does not hold water.

More importantly, as Mr. Akyol brilliantly put it, foreign intervention will only make Turks more stubborn and fuel the fire of reactionary sentiment. Plenty of Turkish citizens have their own family tales of death and exile whether it be at the hands of Czarist Russian forces expelling them from the Caucasus, Armenian brigands in Eastern Anatolia, or ethnic secessionists in the Balkans.

I think many Diaspora Armenians hold an erroneous view that modern Turkey is only inhabited by ethnic Turks and Kurds. In reality, Turkey's "Turkish" population is a multicultural collection that encompasses many ethnic Muslims that were at one time or another expelled from their homelands and killed off in mass numbers (Crimean Tatars, Circassians, Balkan Muslims, etc. etc.). In sum, it will seem to many average citizens that the same forces that imposed misery upon their ancestors are back at work.

Once Diaspora Armenians realize that the problem isn't the Turkish government which "lies" to its populace, but that it is the people -- who are generally extremely skeptical of the government-- that genuinely do not believe in the Armenian thesis, then the Armenian Diaspora's cause will bear fruit. Until then, it will continue to encourage the uglier side of Turkish nationalism.

Peace to All,

Mehmet Basoglu

Mustafa,

I appreciate your thoughtful essay and I am always oppossed to people who paint all Turks as monsters, but even if you don't use the term "genocide" at the very least you have to accept that massive and monstrously unjust ethnic cleansing occurred.

If Armenians were only deported from eastern warzones, it would be one thing, but Armenians were deported from and massacred in towns that were far from the warzones, in towns in which they constituted a small and peacful minority like: Konya, Eskisehir, Amasya & Yozgat.

And extensive reports from Turkey's wartime allies (Germany & Austro-Hungary) state that "insurrection" was an Ittihadist pretext to eliminate Armenians.

If this was an isolated incident I might overlook it, but the vast majority of Turks who I have spoken with cannot accept any blame for any ethnic conflict, be it with Armenians or more recently with Kurds. Armenians or Kurds cannot possibly have any legitimate grievances...the only answer is "sinister external forces..."